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Hot Topics With Bernie Ward, Armstrong Williams

Aired November 25, 2003 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: The White House gets a big win on Capitol Hill with passage of that Medicare bill, and here's some welcome economic news. But reports out of Iraq and about changing enemy tactics could mean more trouble on the road to democracy.
Joining me now to talk about all of this are syndicated columnist and radio talk show host, Armstrong Williams, and Bernie Ward, host of the Bernie Ward Radio Program on KGO News Talk 880 AM in San Francisco.

Hello to both of you. Thanks for joining the debate.

BERNIE WARD, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you very much.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Thank you.

SAVIDGE: All right. Let's start with Iraq. That seems to be always blossoming in the headlines.

Bernie, what do you tell your listeners when you talk to them about how the job is going?

WARD: Well, I tell them that it's a miserable failure. I talk to them about the fact that Americans are dying every day because of the Bush administration's failure to plan. They ignored the State Department when they told them it was going to be much harder to win the peace than the war.

They ignored the intelligence communities. They didn't have enough soldiers. And they still refused to acknowledge the mistakes that they've made in that planning. And we've had at least three different plans now for what we're supposed to do with Iraq. At the same time, we've given the terrorists a target that they could never even have imagined before, and that is a whole bunch of Americans in one place in a country where they don't speak the language and where their mission is very fuzzy and they weren't trained for that mission.

SAVIDGE: All right. Armstrong, let me ask you the same thing. Are you painting that kind of rosy image when you talk and write?

WILLIAMS: No. Listen, I mean, some of us now talk about 9/11 as if it's ancient. One thing that the president and this administration realized, that after 9/11, that the enemy in which we're now the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) war, and it's the war against terrorism, is a different enemy than they were aiming to fight the war here. But because of our intelligence, some laws that we put in place, the fact that we were able to capture some of the cells and break up their cell network, I think the enemy made a decision that they would fight the war elsewhere overseas, in the Middle East, wherever Americans had installations, and against people who are friendly towards Americans.

And so people have to realize, this war is going to be fought. I think most people have drawn the line in the sand to say it's better that the war is fought there instead of the war being fought here.

I think this administration has become far more aggressive. Yes, lives are being lost. That's a very sad fact. But it's a war that's necessary for the stability of not only our country, but for the rest of the world.

SAVIDGE: Let's bring in Richard. He's calling us from New York. Richard, go ahead.

CALLER: Hi. My question refers to the fact that lately we've been hearing so many insurgent attacks -- of so many insurgent against Iraqis and the American military saying, like, well, you know, we're not getting hit as bad because they're getting hit and all that. But the point is, particularly in light of the fact that they've attacked policemen that we supposedly trained to be able to take over the security of the country, at least the first group to take it over. And my point is, well, if that's true, then I get the impression that really they're going to -- they're just doing this to try to tell the world and the United States that, no matter what you do, we're going to come in here and waste who's ever there.

In other words, if they leave, they're going to wind up taking over. They're going to prevail, in other words. Because if they can do this already while we've got loads and loads of troops there, then what's to say that when we get out, they're going to be well equipped to withstand the insurgents in their own country and Iraq will fall to whoever these insurgents are, rather than to anybody else.

SAVIDGE: Bernie, what about the issue, you know, if we cut and run, what message does that send, especially to future operations, if they just put up and kill enough Americans that we'll just go home?

WARD: Well, first of all, let me address Armstrong, because I can't believe he tried to connect Iraq to September 11. Even the president doesn't do that. Well, he does do it, but he said there's no connection.

The war on terror was in Afghanistan. The people who attacked American were in Afghanistan. The Taliban were in Afghanistan. And we abandoned Afghanistan.

We took valuable resources fighting terrorism to go for a war that we didn't have to fight. This was a war of choice. Even Thomas Friedman...

WILLIAMS: The Saudis were in Afghanistan? Is that what you're saying?

WARD: I'm saying that the people...

WILLIAMS: Well, what are you saying?

WARD: I'm saying that the people that attacked us were in Afghanistan.

WILLIAMS: Saudi Arabia?

WARD: I'm saying that the terrorists were in Afghanistan. And Osama bin Laden and his network were operated out of Afghanistan. Iraq had nothing to do with the attack on the United States. Unless you have information I don't have, Armstrong. Do you have information I don't have that Iraq attacked the United States?

WILLIAMS: I think when you talk about terrorism, and I think when you talk about what Saddam Hussein said when he was in power, that one of his main goals was to lay the American people...

WARD: What did Saddam Hussein ever do to the United States?

WILLIAMS: ... low, I think that's a good argument to have...

WARD: Armstrong, give me any evidence.

SAVIDGE: OK. Wait a minute. Let me interrupt, because I want to ask something...

WARD: Anyway, as far as cut and run goes, cut and run is a Vietnam term. According to the president, the reason for going in now wasn't weapons of mass destruction and it wasn't nuclear weapons. They've all said those don't exist. That now it was because we had to get rid of a bad guy and liberate Iraq.

We got rid of a bad guy. And if that was the goal of all this, then we ought to bring our troops home and let the Iraqis settle it. If there was some other goal, then the president ought to articulate that goal instead of having people dying for no reason.

WILLIAMS: I think the president has made it clear that they want to restore government there. You look at the situation. Look at the infrastructure which is in place, running water, electricity.

Even on this network, CNN, it has shown where young kids and people in Iraq have already started stating their lives are much better. The freedom of religion is a process. And I think one of the president's main goals over the next year is to withdraw many of our troops from that region and turn that occupation over to the people of Iraq.

SAVIDGE: I like the way you said that, Armstrong. Even on this network we have shown that. Let's talk about...

WARD: Well, you want to be fair and balanced.

SAVIDGE: Hold on a second, Bernie. How are we going to measure the impact of this issue, come the election of 2004? Do you think that President Bush is going to win or lose based upon what happens in Iraq? WARD: I don't think solely based on Iraq. I think the economy and some other things are going to go in. But certainly, Democratic candidates are going to say, why would you re-elect a president whose judgment was so bad, who fraudulently told the American people we had to go into Iraq because it was in imminent danger, and who left American troops so exposed that now they're being killed one or two a day in this terrible drip, drip, drip. I think the president is very vulnerable on this issue.

SAVIDGE: Armstrong?

WILLIAMS: All presidents are vulnerable. The one thing the American people admire about this president, they may not agree with all decisions that were made -- and some errors were made along the way -- but this president believes in something. He has courage. He sticks with his guns and he's willing to lay it all on the line.

And the one thing that the American people are going to remember, Bernie, is this: not since 9/11 has there been a serious terrorist attack on American soil. Now you can try to define different reasons as to why that is the case, but the bottom line, nothing has happened on our soil. And at least the American people are going to give the president the benefit of the doubt that at least he's doing something right.

WARD: I agree with you, Armstrong. There hasn't been. Unfortunately, once again, Iraq has nothing to do that.

Iraq wasn't a threat to this country. Iraq had never been involved with any groups that were a thret to this country. So if you're really arguing that the policy has worked, the policy must have worked somewhere else, because Iraq had nothing to do with it.

WILLIAMS: Are we absolutely certain that Iraq was not involved?

WARD: Absolutely certain.

WILLIAMS: That has not been -- that has not really been determined yet.

WARD: The president said they weren't involved, Armstrong. The president was at pointblank. He was at pointblank.

SAVIDGE: OK. Well, we're not going to figure this one out by shouting back and forth. Let's move on.

Iraq we've done. However, it's interesting in the viewers minds -- and I'm going by e-mail here -- how there seems to be a linkage between Medicare and Iraq.

Case in point, this e-mail from James. It says, "The Medicare changes will be similar to the Iraq situation, going where we should never have gone and then finding out we cannot go forward nor can we go back once implemented. Attempts to correct the problems will only cause more." Again, that is James.

Let's move on to Medicare. The issue here, Bernie, what are your thoughts? Did you like (AUDIO GAP)?

WARD: It's a sad day, because we've taken the first step to privatization and the end of Medicare as an entitlement. It's $125 billion given to the pharmaceutical companies. We're not even going to let Medicare be able to negotiate with the drug companies to force prices down like they can in Canada, and we're going to tell senior citizens that they're going to end up in HMOs without the traditional Medicare coverage if, in fact, this bill goes in the direction it's going to go.

And I want to be very clear. Democrats voted for this bill, as well as Republicans. And it's a sad day to watch that party turn its back on senior citizens.

SAVIDGE: Armstrong, who is going to gain politically from this, those who supported the bill or those who fought against it, come Election Day?

WILLIAMS: I think it's a huge victory for the president. He had the strong backing of the American Association for Retired Persons. And listen, for someone who grew up in the South, and who has come from a rural community, $25 billion of this money over the next 10 years will go to rural communities who have complained for so long that they don't get the money.

And sometimes people who have rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis don't get the proper treatment until years down the road. This bill would immediately give relief to the people who suffer from these symptoms.

No, the bill is not perfect. Yes, there are some problems with the bill. But in terms of the fact that they've been talking about this kind of legislation and this kind of bill for the last six years, finally the president got it done. And I think it was on the credibility of our (ph) that really gave this bill the credibility that was necessary that forced its passage in the House and in the Senate.

SAVIDGE: All right. Armstrong, you know what? I'm going to hold you there -- Bernie, I know you're chomping at the bit -- because we're going to take a break here. We're going to take more of your calls, more of your e-mails, and we're also going to, for the meantime, right now, go to Baghdad.

Walt Rodgers standing by. We told you of the explosions. Walt, new information?

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Martin, you and I were just finished chatting just a short while ago. And as I was leaving this camera position, I could hear what sounded like two rather large mortars falling in the area of the CPA, the Coalition Provisional Authority. And then the sirens you hear in the background, there was also a loud speaker saying, "This is not a test. Seek shelter."

Again, it's ironic that this seems to come just a number of hours after the chief U.S. military officer in this part of the world was saying there had been a reduction in these attacks by 50 percent over the past two weeks. I don't know who's counting and how, but there was no reduction this evening when what may have been two large mortars fell in the area of the Coalition Provisional Authority up by the old Iraqi Ministry of Information in the Green Zone itself.

No word yet on casualties, but it seems as if the Iraqi insurgents, every time one of the American officials here makes some sort of claim that things are getting better, they have a retort or a way of answering and rebutting that on their own. And that happened to be some rather loud explosions not far from here -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: And so, to be certain here, the coalition forces say it's not us right? Meaning that they aren't carrying out the attacks?

RODGERS: No, I don't believe so at all. I haven't heard anything to suggest that. If the U.S. were carrying it out, I don't think we would have heard those warning sirens, which you were just playing then. And they're saying, "This is not a test" on a loudspeaker.

That would seem to confirm that the Iraqi guerrillas, the Iraqi insurgents who are trying to ee evict the Americans or persuade the Americans to go home, are working their will again. Or at least making their rejoinder to the American claims of progress here -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Right. All right. Walt Rodgers, thank you very much for the clarification. We will stay close to you for further updates.

In the meantime, we'll take a break and come back with more of the debate. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Welcome back. Medicare, the economy, Iraq, big stories that are also expected to play a major role in the upcoming presidential election. I'm talking about all of that with my guests, syndicated columnist and radio talk show host, Armstrong Williams, and Bernie Ward, host of the Bernie Ward Radio Program on KGO News Talk 880 AM in San Francisco.

Thanks, both of you, for...

WARD: 810.

SAVIDGE: 810, is that right?

WARD: Yes.

SAVIDGE: I'm sorry.

WARD: That's OK.

SAVIDGE: OK, thanks. I don't mean to get it wrong, Bernie. OK. We're going to go back to Iraq mainly because I can. And the issue is, when do you see it coming to an end? How long are we going to be there, Bernie?

WARD: Until I'm dead.

SAVIDGE: Really?

WARD: Oh, it will be exactly the same as the demilitarized zone in the Koreas. There will be American troops in Iraq for as long as you and I will look at that.

SAVIDGE: But the DMZ in Korea has worked, I will point that out.

WARD: Well, it may have worked. I mean, you didn't say when we're going to leave. In fact, you can't find a place where America has put troops in that they're not still there since World War II. The only place was Vietnam.

Other than that, every place we've put troops, they're going to stay. There will be American troops in American bases in Iraq until my children die.

SAVIDGE: Armstrong, that does seem the way it is. I mean, you may not have an overwhelming presence, but some presence of some kind is going to be there for a long, long time, don't you think?

WILLIAMS: I think Bernie is absolutely correct, just from sheer stability and to train people properly and to get them a whole new way of life and a whole new way of thinking and governing. Especially...

SAVIDGE: Plus you have a base in the region. I mean, you have...

WILLIAMS: Excuse me, now?

SAVIDGE: You would have a base in the region to continue the war against terror, I presume?

WILLIAMS: Yes, absolutely. So I would not differ with Bernie on that point.

WARD: Which, by the way, was the plan of the Project For a New American Century. Wolfowitz and the gang, that's exactly what they said in 1998 when they wrote this whole blueprint to begin with, was the reason to go into Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, nothing to do with September 11. It had to do with putting a military base in Iraq so they could then use it to dominate the rest of the Middle East. So it's coming to fruition very nicely.

SAVIDGE: All right, Bernie. You couldn't let it lie, could you?

All right. I have to give Armstrong the last say. Go ahead.

WILLIAMS: You know, all I want to do is say, on a point we discussed earlier, back on Medicare, look, man, there are a lot of doctors over the past few years who pulled out of Medicare because the government did not provide enough money to compensate them for being involved. Now it will be increased, and many of them will re-enter the program. And there are a lot of people who receive Medicare will have a place to go to make sure their needs are taken care of.

As I said earlier, it's not perfect, but it's something that's necessary for right now. There are many seniors around this country who have been desperate to get some kind of help and some kind of attention for that which ails them.

SAVIDGE: Armstrong Williams, you get the final say today. Thanks very much for being with us. Also Bernie Ward, host of the Bernie Ward Radio Program in San Francisco.

We thank both of you for joining us on the program.

WARD: Thank you very much.

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